I was wondering what the German sci-fi community felt about...

[Serenity]

And there are several episodes the Klingon, Vulcan, Romulan or Cardassian culture is shown without prejudices and especially in DS9 and especially by Quark the Federation often enough as duplicitous.

Yes, that's one reason why DS9 is the far superior show.

But the TNG ideology by itself is extremely sickening. Aliens were generally potrayed as backwards and primitive. Babarians at the gates of the enlightened Federation. Humans are evolved and explore the galaxy from a position of self-righteous arrogance and inherent superiority. They visit planets, determine what is wrong with a society in a few hours and the solution is to become more like humans.

DS9 criticized that feeling of superiority a couple of times. Especially with Quark. For example his conversation with Sisko in "The Jem'Hadar". It's true that the TNG Federation only tolerated people who were already like them and tried to change everyone else towards their standards. And if that is not possible, they hated them. Like the treatement - and less in-universe, the entire depiction - of the Ferengi.

So yes, there are some subconscious facisist elements in the show. But it's largely confined to TNG and even there it decreased as bit as time went on.

[Roman]

Yes, that's one reason why DS9 is the far superior show.

But the TNG ideology by itself is extremely sickening. Aliens were generally potrayed as backwards and primitive. Babarians at the gates of the enlightened Federation. Humans are evolved and explore the galaxy from a position of self-righteous arrogance and inherent superiority. They visit planets, determine what is wrong with a society in a few hours and the solution is to become more like humans.

Ich beantworte das in Deutsch, weil es nichts mit der eigentlichen Fragestellung zu tun hat:

Du redest nicht von TNG, du sprichst von TOS.
Halt dir das bitte vor Augen.

[newman]

Yes, that's one reason why DS9 is the far superior show.

But the TNG ideology by itself is extremely sickening. Aliens were generally potrayed as backwards and primitive. Babarians at the gates of the enlightened Federation. Humans are evolved and explore the galaxy from a position of self-righteous arrogance and inherent superiority. They visit planets, determine what is wrong with a society in a few hours and the solution is to become more like humans.

DS9 criticized that feeling of superiority a couple of times. Especially with Quark. For example his conversation with Sisko in "The Jem'Hadar". It's true that the TNG Federation only tolerated people who were already like them and tried to change everyone else towards their standards. And if that is not possible, they hated them. Like the treatement - and less in-universe, the entire depiction - of the Ferengi.

So yes, there are some subconscious facisist elements in the show. But it's largely confined to TNG and even there it decreased as bit as time went on.

U didn't understand TNG !

Auch mal auf Deusch - weil mir kein passendes Wort für Holzhammermethode einfällt. Aber im ST1 Topic hatte ich erst vor kurzem eine Diskussion, dass TNG seine Moral doch viel zu offensichtlich mit der Holzhammermethode durchboxen würde. Jetzt weiß ich warum es gut ist seine Botschaft doch nicht zu sehr zu verschachteln, selbst die Holzhammermethode versteht nicht jeder.

[Serenity]

Yes it is related somewhat to the topic at hand

TOS had nothing of that "we are evolved and so much better than modern humans" nonsense. That's the difference. Humans were technologically superior, but not morally.

I'm not so much criticizing the actions in themselves, but their context. That they were never called on their behavior and mainly the hypocrisy inherent in preaching about tolerance while being very bigotted at the same time


EDIT:
Haha. So typisch für TNG Fans. Wenn man nicht dem neuen Roddenberry zustimmt, dann hat man offensichtlich die Serie nicht verstanden.
Nein, so einfach ist das nicht. Die Autoren wollten eine bessere Zukunft zeigen, aber haben das so unsubtil (engl.: sledgehammer) gemacht, dass sie nicht an die Implikationen daraus gedacht haben. Es ist nur eine Interpretationssache und eure Sichtweise ist nicht die einzig korrekte.

[Roman]

It is, however, a matter of fact, dear Serenity, that your previous post, charging TNG, is pure nonsense.

You listed anything that can (and should) by rights be critisized about TOS. Albeit it was your intention to talk about TOS.

But you said TNG. And TNG did not feature those pervert ideology of culturalism - that can definitely be found in TOS - at all.
That's what newman and I wantet to point out to.

I hope you see that you've made a mistake.
If you don't I have to ask whether the TNG you saw was the same show as the one everybody else saw.

[Kaff]

U didn't understand TNG !

Auch mal auf Deusch - weil mir kein passendes Wort für Holzhammermethode einfällt. Aber im ST1 Topic hatte ich erst vor kurzem eine Diskussion, dass TNG seine Moral doch viel zu offensichtlich mit der Holzhammermethode durchboxen würde. Jetzt weiß ich warum es gut ist seine Botschaft doch nicht zu sehr zu verschachteln, selbst die Holzhammermethode versteht nicht jeder.

No, i just like think and make my own verdicts about the actions of the protagonists. I like to decide, that what they are doing is right or wrong.
I do not wan't to be preached by them. It's mostly annoying and boring.

[Kaff]

I hope you see that you've made a mistake.
If you don't I have to ask whether the TNG you saw was the same show as the one everybody else saw.

I am sure, we all saw the same series, but with different eyes and minds and so with different opinions and expectations.

[Serenity]

No, you can't charge TOS with the same level of hypocrisy displayed by the crew.

The alien cultures might have been largely shown as primitive, but the crew didn't act as high-and-mighty around them. They didn't think they were more evolved than both modern-day humans or those alien cultures. They were aware that they were just as flawed as we are today and they didn't have all the solutions to other people's problems.

There are probably a few examples of them storming in and changing things without much reaon, but those are exception, not the norm. And such behavior was also questioned now and then. "Errand of Mercy" comes to mind

[newman]

Well there is a very big differece between being preached to humanism and showing facism.

I really can't understand those ignorance and misunderstandings.
Ok, let's look at a kind of episode, that happens quite often in TNG. The Enterprise reaches a planet - sometimes even a planet that is willing to join the UFP - during the episode they recognize hidden social problems that make it impossible for the "primitive" culture to join the great Federation, e.g. marginal groups, which are treated badly, etc. etc. .
How blind you have to be to think that this primitive culutre is an expression of roddernberry's xenophobia or facism.

Who do you think is that primitive planet?

WE, WE are the primitve culutre. Isn't it a coincidence that all the social problems of them are exactly these problems our western world permanently has, resp. permanently ignores?

[Whyme]

But in TNG, the Federation doesn't demonstrate real tolerance.

Most times they resort to the Prime Directive which is nothing more but a lame excuse to look away and do nothing. The Problems of others are not their concern. You can only benefit of the great Federation if you fit in. Even the smallest flaw keeps you out. These flaws are a part of the cultural identity of a people but the Federation expects them to be eliminated before entering their enlighted family. Where is the tolerance in that?

MfG
Whyme

[newman]

But in TNG, the Federation doesn't demonstrate real tolerance.

Most times they resort to the Prime Directive which is nothing more but a lame excuse to look away and do nothing. The Problems of others are not their concern. You can only benefit of the great Federation if you fit in. Even the smallest flaw keeps you out. These flaws are a part of the cultural identity of a people but the Federation expects them to be eliminated before entering their enlighted family. Where is the tolerance in that?

MfG
Whyme

Isn't it one of the most discussed topic in TNG? Can we infervene as the USA intervenes everywhere in the world or the imperialist european nations did in the past (mostly with negative consequences) or should we leave them alone. Even in TNG you don't get a clear answer, coz there isn't any.

[Whyme]

You are missing my point.

Star Trek is supposed to be about tolerance. But the Federation itself isn't tolerant. To become a part of it you have to be like it. That isn't tolerant but it's the way the Federation is shown in TNG.

That's why I like the scene in DS9 4x01/02 The Way of the Warrior where Quark compares the Federation to root beer. To put it in simple words: The Federations stinks but if you are exposed to the smell long enough, you begin to like it.

Whyme

[Roman]

Wonderfully expressed, newman.
Simple and adequate.

@ Whyme
I fear you have not come to understand what the Prime Directive is about.

Let's take a glimps at TOS.
There the Federation predominantly behaves like ancient European countries behaved during the repulsive period of colonialism.
Please, everybody, do not defend TOS. It does show the same attitudes. And it does say that interference is a good thing. That the more evolved should teach the primitive their way of life, send missionaries and so forth.

TNG does not.
Nowadays most of the European nations have come to understand that by interfering with other cultures on other continents they have caused more harm to their former colonies than they did any good. TNG is the future equivalent.

The Prime Directive does not say: "Oh, they are so primitive. Why should we feel bothered by their extinction?"
Anybody, who sees the PD as an expression of this way of thinking, at least to me, is appallingly far from qualifying themselves as a person who has the depth of mind and intellect to grasp the message of Trek. Sorry, but that is - unfortunately - true.

The PD is the manifestation of the cognition that interfering with (alien) cultures is never beneficial. It destroys the other culture. And since we do not have the right to do so, we need to establish a law that officially keeps us from falling back into our ancestor's way of thinking.

That is what the PD is about.


PS: The Federation isn't intolerant. It is a union of peoples, which have the same interests and ideas.
If there was a Nazi planet to become member, and the Federation says: "No, you just do not share our way of thinking." .... is that intolerance?
No. It is a statement that makes clear that one must - in the first place - agree on essential convictions. Namely, that there is no superior culture. That everbody has the same rights. That nobody must be discriminated against.

Now, if one culture does not agree to that, and the Federation says no...that is intolerance?? Sorry, but it is YOU who's missed the point.

[Whyme]

And now we're back to this thread.

I am certainly not too stupid to understand what the Prime Directive is supposed to mean, I'm simply not blind enough so ignore the other side of it. And the other side ist that it gives Starfleet an excuse to look away whenever it is useful.

Whyme

[Serenity]

The PD is the manifestation of the cognition that interfering with (alien) cultures is never beneficial. It destroys the other culture.

What a naive and condencending view.
Who is to say that all contact to advanced concepts will inadvertently lead to destruction? Who are you to judge the capacity for adapation of all other societies? The issue isn't black and white. You are applying human experiences to all alien societies. It's not even that bleak on Earth itself

A simple example:
In medieval times China's technology and society was far more advanced than Europe. But did that contact destroy Europe? No, on the contrary. Through trade new ideas and concepts were imported, refined and incoporated our society. A few hundred years later, Europe was more powerful than China.
It's mainly when that contact is done by force, that bad things happen. And some cultures might be more open to new ideas than others.

Or Japan in the 19th century. They undertook a massive industrialization effort and weren't off any worse with it

The TNG Prime Directive is a good idea in general, but far too inflexible. People lost sight of its original purpose and view it some kind of irrevertible dogma.
In the most extreme case, when you have a choice between the complete destruction of a planet and the chance of bad effects through "cultural contamination", there is no choice. You help them and deal with the possible effects.
Again a stark contrast to its potrayal in TOS, where it was designed to actually help people and not make the Federation feel good about itself.


And if a civilization would merely have to change somewhat to become a Federation member, that's not that problematic. Members need to have certain standards. It only becomes a problem, when all details are regulated and healthy differences are supressed.
But the TNG Federation and Starfleet have a very arrogant attitude towards others in general. Not just prospective members.

It's not facism of course, but I see why it can be seen as such if you apply primitive labels to everything. It's just an outgrowth of the authors thinking they need to lecture the audience and emphasise how good humans are all the time. Telling instead of showing.